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Is the Earth flat?
in Science
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What is the reason for this moronic statement.
"If you do have a model, how do you know it predicts everything needed."
It predicts that water is flat, and any valid measurement of it proves this. I make no assumptions about the sun.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
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“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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Nice.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
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“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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Bare assertion. You can see it. How am I jumping to conclusions? I do not. Please explain. Also, I do not get why you only accept some science.
Evidence for that: http://www.wowreally.blog/2006/10/high-and-wide.html, http://mathscinotes.com/2017/01/effect-of-earths-curvature-on-suspension-bridge-dimensions/, I also linked this in a previous debate to prove it
No, not an assertion, we see other planets as spheres. If we saw a flat one, it would be more believable for the Earth to be flat. Not a straw man because there were no previous arguments to misrepresent. A straw man is exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman. You manually reset your router is irrelevant and a false comparison fallacy. Here, it obeys Kepler's laws of motion. I actually did a school science fair project on things in orbit. http://howthingsfly.si.edu/flight-dynamics/kepler’s-laws-orbital-motion. https://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/mdyar/ast223/orbits/orb_lect.html.
So, you show a picture of the round Earth, deny it, and then cherry pick data. Nice! Ok, only a part of the internet is with satellites. However, sometimes it does use satellites. The part that describes it in this video: from 2:10 to 2:25. So no, not an assertion. The rest is meaningless since I debunked what you said.
Relativity has been proved over and over again. Here are the tests of proof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity, https://www.space.com/37018-solar-eclipse-proved-einstein-relativity-right.html, and https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a6175/5-recent-tests-that-prove-einstein-right/. You can see the ISS, https://spotthestation.nasa.gov/sightings/, and https://spotthestation.nasa.gov. Oh wait, you do not trust NASA so here have a different source https://www.space.com/34650-track-astronauts-space-new-interactive-map.html. That picture does not prove your point because the live stream is from the ISS. Straw man fallacy. I do not believe everything I see on TV. It needs to be tested first.
No argument again. Just say "full of assumptions". Does not mention what they are. I just said that this is explained by the heliocentric model. You did not even try and counter what I said.
Please explain why it does not instead of just saying it does not. The second part, you came in and said the Earth is flat so this is wrong. Again, a fallacy. I did do research. Bare assertion.
Please try and counter the first part. I have explored alternatives and they do not work. Ad-hominem fallacy for calling me a parrot. Ha, you did not counter the link and the video.
Again you did not counter! Wait, a hurricane travels in the air? The experiment proved it.
Fallacy. Ad-hominem to be precise. Yes, I could but do not want to. It is fun when it is with multiple people.
“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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There bumps we know that. How does that support your point? I will quote @WilliamSchulz because I really like his argument.
If we had elevation on a flat Earth, we would be able to see everything from a greater height. However, this is untrue, from a lower elevation, we can not see as much as a person at a higher elevation. On a flat Earth, we should be able to see everything regardless of height, but on around Earth, perspective makes more sense.
Not a dead link. How is it? It provides evidence.
We have sent satellites into space to see the shapes of the planets and we can see different parts as they rotate. http://ganymede.nmsu.edu/holtz/a110/a110notes/node2.html
See above.
That statement is irrelevant. Does not prove anything.
No, can you explain in greater detail?
Straw man. Never said that at all. I am saying that a man-made satellite is very different than your router. Thank you but it is not sci-fi. You ignore the rest of the argument.
The internet is impossible is false. I admit that. But they do provide internet. They exist!
What about older technology? They can be faked today but not in the 60s or 70s.
No, you did not. You did not explain anything really. Just copied my argument.
See.
You did not explain at all. Saying it is common sense and providing no evidence is hypocritical. Why should it be illegal?
What you said does not make sense?
Explain why it is pluasable. You have not done it and are just claiming you have.
Well, what I guess you see is wrong. Your apology is accepted.
@Ampersand created a great argument, in my opinion, to counter that so I will repost it.
"1) With a lense, it will curve lines of perspective away from the centre, e.g.:
2) The earth in that image does not reach the centre of the picture.
Ergo the distortion in that picture is making the earth less curved than it is in reality, not more, and therefore it is approximately proof number one billion of the spherical nature of the earth. Thanks for your assistance."
Your argument did not make sense. Can you rephrase it? Planes move with the Earth.
Hurricanes are on the surface of the ocean. Not traveling through the air like a plane.
Explain your video. No, this experiment. The video proves why the Coriolis effect is real and is dictated by hemisphere. The important parts are from 1:44-5:35. It has a controlled experiment. In the end, it explains why there is a difference between hemispheres. It works because it does. To understand this, think of a pool at the geographic poles. It is stationary relative to Earth, but every sidereal day, it is actually completing one full rotation. The part further away from the pole and closer to the equator move faster because it has to complete a larger movement in the same amount of time (that is why rockets are launched closer to the equator. When the plug is pulled (part of the experiment) everything is moving toward the drain in the middle. The far side is faster so it gets ahead while the slower part is too slow so it lags behind.
Edit: The video was a picture by accident because I copied and pasted my arguments. Here is the video:
You seem to have ignored some of my arguments and when countering some made false assumtions and commited a lot of fallacies.
Note: every time I skip a line I am countering his next argument
“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
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What you said does not make sense?
Explain why it is pluasable. You have not done it and are just claiming you have.
You literally just posted my rebuttal and said there is not one...
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
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Since I do not have any editor I am using pictures from a video and so the image I am posting is not the one that you did. However, it still applies, just changes the orientation. They are actually parallel. Anything at a far distance will configure, just like train tracks. The convergence of rays is usually unable to be seen on a clear day/partially cloudy day. However, as I already have said, clouds make this illusion visible. This is because they only let a bit of sunlight through. In this picture, the sun is simply right here. Taking the clouds out of the picture helps.
You are assuming that they are in 2d when they are in 3d.
Note, switch z with y.
The sun has a very high z-axis value (z is where y is). So it is very far away.
These are the rays on a clear day from above the clouds.
Oh my gosh. I just remembered I could have used google drawing and so the next time I will do that.
“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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I am literally posting evidence and facts, accurate measurements of the earth and it's waters, this is you continuing to ignore evidence and facts that directly refute your position, that the earth is a ball that is 25,000 miles in circumference.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
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“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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Your idea of "evidence" is dismissing my arguments with "this is an illusion" with zero supporting evidence. "Refraction" with zero supporting evidence. You completely dismiss and ignore my facts and evidence and copy/paste the same refuted arguments. Actually, you fail to refute anything, instead, you paste other people's arguments, which is why you are ignoring my requests for a 1v1 debate.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
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“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
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We can defend it here. Your sunrays argument has been debunked. You have not debunked my long argument. I know I can't say that someone already debunked it in a 1 vs 1 debate. In this, there is no point in just saying the same exact thing. Who is @goober? I think you mean @Gooberry.
“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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for example, I pointed out you refuted your own argument, and have contradicted yourself multiple times: you’ve accused plus ofstraw men, and red herring despite giving no reasons or justificafions multiple times.
Why don’t start producing examples, arguments and justifications for the unsupported claims you’ve ready made before challenging someone to a debate where you won’t defend your claims either, whilst preemptively complaining that you won’t respect the result of voters who understand the incoherence
of your defence and vote against you accordingly?
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Those rays clearly intersect at a point above the clouds, and are not always the same distance apart, whether or not you will admit it.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
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“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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Only clouds show this. They block out the majority of the light and show small portions. I posted a picture of parellel ones on a clear day (you need a clear day).
“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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and again, he hurls accusations, with no evidence. You really needn’t to start providing actual evidence and argument at some point.
everyone sees you systematically avoiding every single argument against you. And systematically failing to defend your position:
- This whole conversation started because I provided demonstrable scientific reasons why your measurements do not take into consideration refraction. You haven’t bothered to defend your measurement at all: few to explain how your experiment accounts for refraction: you’ve said it Jason multiple times, but never explained how!
- I’ve explained how to take into account refraction, and shown why you have to do it on the way I suggest. I provided experimental explanations of why you’re position I unreliable, and given examples of how, when you account for refraction you see curvature. Feel free to explain where: but you haven’t provided anything other than denials that this is the case, no explanation like you’re doing here.
- I’ve pointed out that your videos and images actually do show curvature, even your own position is not that there’s is no curvature, but there isn’t as much as there should be. There’s not much I can say to someone who doesn’t appreciate the irony!
I had to drag you kicking and screaming into defending your position: boy was the result awesome!
You basically told me how measuremenrs of objects in water can’t be used as examples of how the atmosphere works, refuting your own arguments and videos you’ve provided where you claim objects viewed through water are analogous.
you said that snells law and refraction requires a change in medium, which refutes your own position about how light refracts in the atmosphere.
you then change your mind and say refraction doesnt require a change in medium, refuting what you just said a few posys before, and makes your argument about how water works irrelevant to.
you claimed that everything you had just said was in line wIth the laws of physics, despite everything you having said thus far being completely at odds with the established laws of refraction, including but not limited to the above, AND claims that longer distances refract more than shorter ones.
Even through all of this, even through you being forced to contradict yourself three times, refute your own argument twice; and say thugs that are so self evidently false: you still have not addressed any of the major problem the experiment highlights: specifically that what you said about how objects Always appear lower is a factually false supported by logic that is clearly refuted by this one simple video.
so, this is a very fruitful conversation. It has been You hurling out claims, and accusations: then going multiple posts attempting to dismiss without justification an experiment. When I dragged you, against your will, into actually having Rochier provide an argument: this magical post where you refute and contradict yourself with an incoherent and ever changing argument that simply appears like a desperate attempt to say ANYTHING to try and avoid the real subject.
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Wait, so what about the pictures and videos that I sent. You always say refraction or lens but this contradicts your recent argument. I guess I have to repost I the debunk.
Since I do not have any editor I am using pictures from a video and so the image I am posting is not the one that you did. However, it still applies, just changes the orientation. They are actually parallel. Anything at a far distance will configure, just like train tracks. The convergence of rays is usually unable to be seen on a clear day/partially cloudy day. However, as I already have said, clouds make this illusion visible. This is because they only let a bit of sunlight through. In this picture, the sun is simply right here. Taking the clouds out of the picture helps.
You are assuming that they are in 2d when they are in 3d.
Note, switch z with y.
The sun has a very high z-axis value (z is where y is). So it is very far away.
These are the rays on a clear day from above the clouds.
“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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You decided to change the laws of physics to try and argue I was wrong.
Obviously, you kinda need a basis of evidence and fact to overturn the laws of physics.
When I pointed this out; you referenced the 3 experiments as a reason to believe that the laws of physics were different, then in the next post, you claimed you were adhering the laws of physics.
It’s yet another schizophrenic claim where you contradict yourself over the space of a post or two.
This is likely why you don’t like to engage in debate!
oh, and I’m still waiting for why you claimed looking at planets, stars or the sun is a “straw man”, why any of my arguments are “red herrings”, why any of the stuff I said in any of my replies here are a “hasty generalization”, or why the arguments I provided as to why you are wrong are “ad hoc” is “irrelevant”.
I suspect you don’t know what any of those things mean, and are just throwing out claims you can’t prove to try and sound smarter.
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p6M-VgXHwwdpJarhyQYapBz-kRc6FrgdOLFAd3IfYz8/edit
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Again, over the course of 60 miles, it is reasonable to assume that there would be enough water in the air to cause some refraction, though you have yet to counter which direction the light is demonstrably bent. Nonetheless, at a distance of just 9 or 12 miles, it is illogical to say that refraction causes over 40 feet of curvature to magically disappear, and anything that is supposed to be hidden will be raised back into view, and the earth appearing to be flat is just an illusion. This is ad hoc, and is not aupported by any facts or evidence.
So, once again you veer far away from the request for you to clarify why looking at a skyline through water, which refracts the light from it is botched, but looking at a side view of someone shining a laser through sugar water is a more accurate representation of looking at a skyline through a body of water than looking at a skyline through a body of water.
I expect nothing but more rhetorical nonsense as a reply.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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His response literally addressed the original picture. As yet, I don't recall you having ever provided a rebuttal of this argument.
Feel free to repost it, so we can assess it.
Otherwise it just looks like you’re trying to ignore his argument.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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where the sun's rays do come to the observer from the sun, but I didn't. The rays go in all manner of direction, once again...
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Anyone refusing to acknowledge the blatantly obvious differences are denying observable facts of reality.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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In a 3d model, these rays do go in generally the same direction, and provably so.
But notice how in my image the rays enter the clouds and even go away from the observer, in the back.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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I was looking for a rebuttal of, you know, his explanation of 2D vs 3D perspective and why it can’t work. At best your reply here is a series of partially related statements that you don’t pull together in the context of the argument.
For example, Pogue referenced train tracks, which appear in perspective shots not to be parallel; and used his image to explain that same principle at work in 3D: that if parallel lines appear to converge due to perspective, that in 3 dimensions, this may explain why the lines are parrallel but do not appear to be.
What you’ve done, is simply listed the things you think are different about train tracks, and sun rays: then implied without argument that because they have some subtle differences, that they can’t be the same thing.
That is not a rebuttal, and is like saying one apple is small and red, the other is large and green: they can’t both be apples.
It’s a neat rhetorical ploy; but it’s up to you to provide a demonstration or explanation as to why those differences you cite are relevent, and why they can’t be the product of what Pogue explained is different in the examples in his post, then quite frankly your point is largely irrelevant me certainly not any form of rebuttal: it’s more the case you’re just hurling claims, and deciding not to defend them still.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
I friended myself!
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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